Lotting Rules

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Lotting Rules

Post  Sabaron on Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:21 am

Einherjar Lotting Rules

Summary In Brief:

How to Get And Lose Points
  1. Players receive 1 point for each run they attend.
  2. Players may bank a maximum of 25 points.
  3. Players lose 1 point for an unexcused absence.
  4. Players receive 1 point for each four consecutive runs attended in which they arrive before or within 5 minutes of the gather together time or if they arrive at least 15 minutes before the lamp is lit.


How Points Are Spent

At any time during the lotting process, if you would say about a given item in the treasure pool that you would not use it within any reasonable amount of time (e.g. Within the next 2 months) or that you would drop that item upon receipt, please pass the item immediately.

You will also be asked to pass on items once their lotting is confirmed. You should not pass on items that you want before the eligibility of the winning lotter is confirmed as the lotting may progress to a lower level.

Bids are placed on any Abjurations, Khroma Ore, or Imperial Wootz Ingots in the pool. Highest bidders get to lot the item. A person may elect to bid the same number of points as the current high bidder--no one may bid higher than the item's cap. After all bids are in, all of those people who have bid the highest number of points may lot the item. The winner of the lot is the only one who spends points.

Point Tiers:

Tier I (Maximum bid of 10 points): Khroma Ore
Tier II (Maximum bid of 15 points): Imp. Wootz Ingots, Most Abjurations
Tier III: (Maximum bid of 20 points): Items that only drop in Odin's Chamber

The highest cost-cap of 20 points allows for people saving for Odin drops to still lot other things like lower synthesis materials and common abjurations (when you know a Valgrind run is far off) without endangering their ability to lot on their Odin item.

The following Abjurations and items have a 20 point bid cap instead of the normal 15 because they only drop in Odin's Chamber:

Tier III Items:

Aquarian: Body
Earthen: Body
Hadean: Body
Martial: Body
Wyrmal: Body
Phantasmal: Body
Phantasmal: Feet

Hofud
Valhalla Breastplate
Valhalla Helm
Valkyrie's Fork

All other abjurations have a bid cap of 15 points.

------------------------
Details


I was thinking about types of lotting systems and which will work well with Einherjar. There are several basic attributes of lotting systems that I'll examine below, and then I will restate the position in summary at the end of the document. This is not the final system—this is a proposal for a system that I believe suits the needs of the shell and is reasonably understandable.


1.Points versus Seacom
For Einherjar, it was pointed out that since there are so few drops and these drops vary greatly that /seacom is an inefficient system for Einherjar, and I agree. It would also be a bitch to try to take attendance with /seacom (which can take quite a while for 36 people especially when 30% of the people either don't know how to form a /seacom or have /seacom'ed incorrectly). Therefore, the rest of the document will focus on a Point system.

2.Capped Points versus Uncapped Points
For anyone who's been in an LS with uncapped points, there's always a select few people in the shell who have an ungodly number of points that they never spend. These “point-savers” have an ability to monopolize drops. For this reason, point values for items that drop tend to be inflated in order to accommodate these point savers—having items costing 90 points or above makes it seem like making a relic weapon in terms of time and effort applied. Therefore, I prefer a Capped point system. I will suggest a limit of 25 points for the system being described here. I chose 25 points because it represents the basic attendance for a member for approximately 3 months. There are generally 26 runs per quarter (3 month period), so we could technically go to 26 points. The idea behind this capping is that it encourages players to spend their points and not horde them and it also levels the playing field for newer members since, as you know very well, there will be member attrition for various reasons and we need to maintain at least some incentive to show newer members that they will have the ability to obtain items just like everyone else.

3.Fixed Prices versus Auction
Fixed prices are nice because you can budget costs ahead of time. Auctions are nice because they allow the price of an item to be set based on demand. I propose satisfying both conditions with a combined system or, Capped Auction system. Divide all of the abjurations and synthesis material drops into broad categories and give each category a “cap price” for instance, “Sky Abjurations” could be a 10 point category containing all abjurations attainable from sky. If no one is willing to bid 10 points for the item, it would be auctioned to the highest bidder. However, anyone willing to bid 10 points (which would be the maximum auction bid) would be allowed to lot on the item. This protects people with larger point banks from “shilling” or bidding only with the intent to increase the price and allows people to budget for the item—you know that once you have 10 points, you can always lot on your desired item even if someone has way more points than you do and if no one is interested in the item, you can get it for a steal! Minimum bid would, of course, be set at some basic value like 1 point.

4.Non-attendance
We all have issues in life that cause us to skip FFXI. Some people also have in game issues (like bitchy HNMLS's) that also impinge on their fun outside of that group. We also have people who only attend one or the other run. Therefore, there should be permanent attendance waivers for “once-per-week” people and they should only be required to attend on the day they have signed up for. In all other cases, a leadership member should be notified of any planned or unexpected absence in advance. The easiest way to notify of an absence is to post it on the forum (which should be upgraded to have an “Absence” forum). Any excused absence of reasonable duration should have no attendance penalty. Since Einherjar is a difficult mission and it is necessary that people acquire an appropriate bank of feathers in order to participate in upper-tier battlefields, some sort of punitive action is warranted for people who routinely skip. Therefore, I propose that all unexcused absences result in the loss of an attendance point. Further, a cap should be established on the number of unexcused absences a person may have. For instance, a cap of 3 unexcused absences results in your slot for the run opening. If your run slot is opened, leadership will locate a replacement for your spot and you shall lose all remaining points. Further, you will have to wait for a slot to open up before you will be allowed to attend any further runs. Excused or pre-arranged absences do not result in the loss of points. Emergency situations do not require a posting in advance (such as my child is ill, I have to go, etc.) and would be adjudicated on a case-by-case basis.

5.Tardiness
Each run a person attending a given run earns 1 attendance point if they are in the zone when the lamp is lit. If you are late and get locked out, you do not get attendance. Since Einherjar is rather unforgiving for small groups, we will make every effort to ensure that you get to enter if you are slotted, but at the same time, it's not fair to people who are on time to have to wait for you. To that end, those who arrive at the gather together time, I propose a bonus of 1 point for each 4 consecutive runs they attend in which they arrive at the zone at least 15 minutes prior to lighting the lamp. Please note that this particular rule might be a bit difficult to implement in terms of administrative time requirements, so may be cut simply for that reason. If so, just remember be nice to others and get to the zone on time.


Last edited by Sabaron on Thu Aug 06, 2009 12:14 am; edited 13 times in total
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Re: Lotting Rules

Post  grondell on Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:52 am

i like the idea of capped points sir ^^ it would make it very easy to replace people who decide to stop showing up. i find that ls' with uncapped points pick up and lose people very quickly when they see how many points the people who have been in the ls forever have. 6 months of constant attendance just to break into the bidding on items is kind of bullshit in my opinion. (one of the many reasons i left the HNMls i joined on this server)

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Re: Lotting Rules

Post  Impirchk on Fri Jul 17, 2009 2:57 pm

I also second the capped points idea.
However I think the lotting rules should be made as simple as possible.
My parents are suggesting (and yes they both play FFXI) that similar to dynamis the abjurations and job specific things should be commented and then you can lot them if they drop.
For the craftables, similar to dynamis I suppose we can either say we are lotting craftables or everyone lots them and that take off a certain amount of points of the person who lots highest and recieves a certain item. I don't know I'm just speculating here. Another thing we can do is make a LS bank and the craftables can be sold and split between members?
But I am generally ok with whatever the lotting system ends up being, as long as it doesnt involve too much thinking...
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Re: Lotting Rules

Post  Sabaron on Fri Jul 17, 2009 4:11 pm

Impirchk wrote:I also second the capped points idea.
However I think the lotting rules should be made as simple as possible.
My parents are suggesting (and yes they both play FFXI) that similar to dynamis the abjurations and job specific things should be commented and then you can lot them if they drop.
For the craftables, similar to dynamis I suppose we can either say we are lotting craftables or everyone lots them and that take off a certain amount of points of the person who lots highest and recieves a certain item. I don't know I'm just speculating here. Another thing we can do is make a LS bank and the craftables can be sold and split between members?
But I am generally ok with whatever the lotting system ends up being, as long as it doesnt involve too much thinking...

We had discussed a /seacom system, but in discussion it comes out to be a VERY bulky and cumbersome prospect for an Einherjar since the number of things that drop is relatively limited in scope and a person might be interested in several pieces since the pieces (unlike in dynamis) are not job specific. This makes it difficult to generate a /seacom quickly and accurately for many people especially those who cannot be on the internet looking at the drops. A simple question asked in Dynamis like, "Does THF drop here?" becomes "What things drop that I can use? I have 4 jobs: WHM, PLD, BRD, and THF" and I really don't want to deal with the administrivia that would arise from that which means that if it's not in your /seacom, you can't lot it and if your /seacom is incorrect, you would be ineligible. Einherjar also lasts only 30 minutes which means there's not really a lot of time to discuss how to formulate a /seacom, etc... Thus the points system--if you can afford it and you want it, you can bid on it, no administrivia involved except checking to see if people have the appropriate points when they ask to lot.

I also do not like the idea of an LS bank for an Einherjar event shell... Since we can have members that are transient or that only come to one run or the other, deciding who gets what share of what items becomes incredibly complicated and will be, inevitably, fraught with errors. A single error disgruntles a player who leaves the shell because of it and then the shouting starts "So-and-so steals drops from shell members for personal gain!" and so forth... LS Bank is IMO a terrible idea both administratively and in terms of its potential for generating mistrust or hard feelings among the membership.

Also, with respect to "freelotting" synthesis materials in Einherjar, you have to look at the value of the things that drop. Einherjar isn't like Dynamis where the best thing you can get is a 150k wootz ore... You can get multiple Imperial Wootz Ingots (which are worth 1.2 million gil) which in my view have a similar value to a hard-to-find or very popular abjuration.

The most complicated portion of the system I proposed is the "auction" feature. If it is determined that the auctioning itself is too burdensome to include, then the system can be simplified by removing that particular aspect and moving to a straight fixed-cost system rather than a capped-bid system. Bidding allows for the LS to set costs for various items based on actual demand rather than the leadership's arbitrary perceived demand. I, personally, don't know how many points people would be willing to spend on a 1.2 million gil ingot... If it was uncapped, one would assume that some people (who are looking for certain other expensive gears) may be willing to spend even 15-20 points on one of those ingots.
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lotting

Post  hex on Mon Jul 20, 2009 12:59 pm

well i have to admit i got kinda lost until i scrolled to the bottom and saw the summary of sab's proposed rules lol i think it sounds pretty good, i also don't think things should just go freelot or /seacom and the idea of a ls bank sounds like drama. some items should just be reserved to pay for runs and then everyone knows what's goin on.
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Please vote in the poll

Post  Sabaron on Sun Jul 26, 2009 11:52 pm

Please vote in the poll. 19 "Yes" votes ratifies the rules.
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Re: Lotting Rules

Post  Knopf on Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:35 am

The rules sound good except for the second loting round. Especially at the beginning there will be many with similar point values but not enough for loting round 1. This leads to having the first to place all his points to monopolize the item. It's not fair to have someone get the lot before an other just because they hit enter earlier or have a faster connection (or what else will be criteria for highest bid?).
So I think even bets should simply result in multiple loters, where only the lot winner will actually pay with points.

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Re: Lotting Rules

Post  Sabaron on Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:46 am

Knopf wrote:The rules sound good except for the second loting round. Especially at the beginning there will be many with similar point values but not enough for loting round 1. This leads to having the first to place all his points to monopolize the item. It's not fair to have someone get the lot before an other just because they hit enter earlier or have a faster connection (or what else will be criteria for highest bid?).
So I think even bets should simply result in multiple loters, where only the lot winner will actually pay with points.

I was actually thinking about that, too... but I hadn't decided on a way to implement it. As for "early" on when everyone has low points, there is a global bid cap in place equal to the total number of points available.

I don't think anyone would object to a match bid system necessarily.


----------------

I've modified the rules to allow for match-bidding under cap.
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second round bidding.

Post  grondell on Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:06 pm

not quite clear on the second round bidding... if it moves out of first round, it becomes an actual bidding system instead of a set price system? I.E. a 15 point item noone wants passes into second round and people with lesser points are able to expend their points in a bidding war if you will?

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Re: Lotting Rules

Post  Sabaron on Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:25 pm

grondell wrote:not quite clear on the second round bidding... if it moves out of first round, it becomes an actual bidding system instead of a set price system? I.E. a 15 point item noone wants passes into second round and people with lesser points are able to expend their points in a bidding war if you will?

Well, technically, the first round isn't needed. The first round is more of a "bypass" to speed things up. If anyone wants to bid the cap, then there's no reason to take lesser bids, but it is a point system.

I suppose it would be simpler to say that we just take bids up to the cap and those people with the highest bid get to lot (e.g. if 3 people bid 12 points, then those 3 get to lot, but all lesser bidders cannot).
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Re: Lotting Rules

Post  Sabaron on Tue Jul 28, 2009 11:40 pm

Significantly simplified bidding to one step (instead of 3)--the essential mechanics were not changed. Modified Tiers slightly--synthesis materials costing less than 100,000gil have been moved to free lot.
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Re: Lotting Rules

Post  Sabaron on Mon Aug 03, 2009 10:23 am

Please note: if you vote against the rules but don't say why you don't like them, there's no chance of that resulting in a change of the rules in your favor since there's no way to determine whether the problem you have can be corrected or if there is a significant enough interest in said change to warrant modification. If you don't want to post to the thread, you can always use the PM button or just send a /tell to one of the sack/shell holders.
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Added List of 20-point items

Post  Sabaron on Thu Aug 06, 2009 12:13 am

I have added the list of 20-point bid cap items to the rules.
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Re: Lotting Rules

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